Brian Sibley and Jude Fisher

Science Museum – 8th November 2003-11-09

The authors of the official Tolkien film tie in books, including the Lord of the Rings Movie Guides and visual Companions shared their experiences on the set of the three movies and their feelings as Tolkien fans towards the adaptations with a group of about 40 people at London’s Science Museum.

They began their talk by sharing how they became interested in Tolkien and how this led to their writing of the books.

Brian Sibley first read the Hobbit when he was 6-8 years old, but despite frequent attempts, never got very far with the massive Lord of the Rings. While celebrating his 21^st birthday with an ulcer he decided the several weeks in hospital would be an ideal opportunity to read it. And having finally made it through the prologue Concerning Hobbits (which he advises people suffering similar problems to skip) he made it all the way through.

Then 20 years ago he was asked to dramatise Lord of the Rings for the BBC Radio 4 series, starring Ian Holm as Frodo. When he heard of the new movie he felt that it could only be better than the previous one and he ‘plagued’ Harper Collins to allow him to write something. He has since written several books and is currently working on finishing Script to Screen which will come out next year. He had hoped to have it out already, but it was just  too dangerous to publish it any earlier as the script continually changes. He is also working on a biography of Peter Jackson, also to be published next year.

Jude Fisher had no such problems getting through Lord of the Rings, becoming obsessed with it at the age of about 12, much to her parents’ irritation. At university she followed in Tolkien’s footsteps studying English with Anglo Saxon and then took a Masters degree in Old Icelandic studies, another of Tolkien’s interests. Having made herself "utterly unemployable" she was working in a betting shop when a next door neighbour informed her of a vacancy at George Allen & Unwin Publishers who she instantly recognised as Tolkien’s publishers. By lying through her teeth about her ability to type and take shorthand she got the job as Tolkien’s Publisher’s secretary. It rapidly became evident that she was the world’s worst secretary and she was promoted to editor in charge of Tolkien. One of her first tasks was replacing the garish artwork that had been used and she commissioned John Howe, Ted Nasmith and Alan Lee.

In 1998 Jude got a phone call from a small production company in New Zealand and a director she’d never heard of, Peter Jackson. He asked for the contact details for Alan Lee and John Howe so that he could consult them for a movie. Wryly thinking that she’d heard that before, she passed on the contact details and thought no more of it.

Brian takes over the story at this point. Apparently Peter Jackson was not keen on sending his previous work to these artists, thinking Brain Dead and Bad Taste may not give entirely the right impression. Instead he sent Heavenly Creatures (which had fantasy sequences in it created by WETA workshop) and Forgotten Silver (a mockumentary not available in the UK about a New Zealand director making an epic film in the 1930s). Jackson was very anxious about the response he would get and so tracked the delivery of the tapes to Lee’s house in Dartmoor. After logging the arrival time of the tapes, he calculated the combined running time of the two features and at the very minute the two finished, the phone rang. Lee later confirmed that he did indeed drop everything when the tapes arrived, watched them back to back and immediately phoned Jackson.

In June 2000, despite no longer working in the Tolkien office Jude got the chance to see some of the early screeners of footage from Fellowship, mostly featuring the hobbits and scenes at the Prancing Pony. She watched with tears in her eyes as she recognised the characters, thrilled that her concerns and worries about this adaptation were being relieved. She took a trip out to New Zealand to watch some filming and upon her return marched into the Tolkien office begging for the commission to write on the films.

Both the authors seem to have had a lot of contact with the authors, mentioning how their distinctly different styles have come to combine into the look of Middle Earth. John Howe never worked with pencils, instead using gauche and canvas, while Alan Lee always worked with pencils and watercolours so they both learnt new skills to work together. A recent visit found Alan Lee, the "quintessential fine artist" gleefully working on graphics on a computer.

After 10 months in New Zealand, Howe returned home to Switzerland to be with his family and Brian suspects he faintly regrets leaving. However Lee remained in New Zealand getting involved with "everything and anything" and Brian thinks it will be an interesting experience for him returning to his little cottage in Dartmoor.

Many people on the project similarly put their lives on hold, "everybody behind the scenes worked around the clock… with tremendous team spirit". They got into the book so much that it swallowed their lives up. Jude saw so many copies of their editions of the book being carried around by everyone involved with the project.

It was inevitable that the films would deviate from the books, Jackson never claimed to be making anything but his own version of Lord of the Rings. In some ways Jude found it easier that their were so many divergences, the book remains itself while you can still enjoy the film. Brian had come across problems when making the Radio 4 adaptation, receiving complaints that ‘Aragorn sounds wrong’.

But despite people’s reservations even before Fellowship of the Ring was released interest was intense and book sales soared. But if the number of people sat on tubes and busses reading them is anything to go by, it wasn’t just a flurry of sales with no readers. Brian contrasted it with releases of books such as A Brief History of Time or indeed, the Silmarillion, where people flock to buy it, and never actually read it.

Yet despite it’s popularity it is scorned by newspapers and the media. When it was announced as the Book of the Century and a finalist for the Big read newspapers labelled voters as ‘infantile’. Many have no regard for fantasy, considering it to be something you should grow out of. Jude, as a writer, finds this particularly frustrating – "As if you could put your imagination in a box when you turn 21". However the 23 science fiction and fantasy titles in the top 100 Big Reads show that it’s what people like to read and Jude wishes the newspapers would respect that.

Jude’s latest book, the Visual Companion to the Return of the King apparently owes a lot to Peter Jackson’s generosity for some its more dramatic shots. Three days before going to press, the author had "a little bit of a hissy fit" feeling that they had nothing new for the readers. A lot of the digital work had not yet been completed, and many other images could not be revealed to avoid spoilers because as Jude says in a wry tone -"nobody knows what happens". So she e-mailed Jackson about her concerns and he personally selected a dozen more images. Other images were ripped out and replaced with these brand new dramatic shots.

As the floor was opened up for questions a variety of subjects were raised. Interestingly the first question asked for the thoughts on Peter Jackson’s next project, King Kong. Brian responded that he was very interested in the subject as it was a one of his favourite films and he’s involved with a radio documentary to celebrate Kong’s 70th birthday. He felt it was a surprising choice as there could be problems with being true to the films essence and not enraging those that are passionate about the film. The 1933 version was quite simplistic, it didn’t have to address the psychology baggage it has to do with race, culture and sex. However any new version would have to deal with these issues.

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Returning to the Lord of the Rings movies, the audience was keen to know of Jude and Brian’s thoughts on the recent news of the cutting of the Saruman section from Return of the King. Peter Jackson has confirmed the loss of a 7 minute sequence which would wrap up the story of Saruman and Wormtongue, including him talking to Gandalf and his death. This section had originally been at the end of the 2nd film, but was felt to be too long, so was moved to the third. However Jackson felt that it made a bad start to the film and felt too much like an ending.

Both writers find this news very worrying, concerned over so many ends that will apparently be left dangling. However they point out Jackson has a way of working that is uniquely his own, which many do not approve of, or understand. They feel it’s a great shame to loose things from the books, especially when other things are added in. However the film had already diverged from the books (with the loss of the Scourging of the Shire), the biggest concern is for the plot holes. Jude also regretted the loss of a great performance by Christopher Lee, while Brian echoed the sentiment wondering why we were listening to them while Lee was across town doing a signing probably venting his "full fury" at the news.

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As this scene will inevitably appear on the extended edition it led neatly to a question on whether the sets are something special for the fans, or just actually for making extra money. Jude pointed out the Jackson is at heart, a fan, and has tremendous fun making the DVDs, but that they are at the same time tremendous merchandising tricks to make us all buy two DVDs. Brian thinks it’s a questionable way to make films, continually saying "it’s ok, it’ll go in the DVD". However re-integrating the scenes into the film, allowing you to see the scenes in context is a much better solution than just dumping them on an extras disc as extra scenes.

Brian has seen the extended edition of the Two Towers and considers it an infinitely better film than the cinema version, which he found a "little disappointing".

Jude was asked how and why she got Viggo Mortensen to do the introduction to her book. She replied that of all the cast, if you want something with real depth to it, you should go to Viggo. She knew that he had things to say about the nature of war and making and he spent a great deal of time writing the introduction, in some ways making the rest of the book feel very flimsy. Brian echoed that Viggo was "fanatical about getting it right" and "doesn’t do anything by half". Following a brief interview with him for one of his books Viggo continued to phone him and message him as he remembered a poem, or a phrase that would give more insight to what he was trying to convey. He started off in the role knowing nothing about the books, and went on to become one of the most knowledgeable on the cast. Jackson would apparently groan whenever Viggo or Ian McKellen would approach him with a book in hand and utter the phrase "the script is diverging...".

Brian was asked where he felt the films would sit in history and despite his dislike for lists he mentioned it in the likes to films such as Star Wars, Close Encounters of the Third Kind, Wizard of Oz, Lawrence of Arabia, 2001 and Gone With the Wind. He also pointed out that many films such as Casablanca were not a classic in their own time, it takes time for a reputation to grow. Lord of the Rings however has already been pushed into that list through hype and promotion before it’s even finished. He believes it’s the human elements and cumulative talents of so many people that make it a timeless classic. While brilliant effects help, they cannot compensate for a bad film.

However despite this praise, he isn’t putting any money on success at the Oscars. He feels that Hollywood favours it’s own and they don’t like the "enfant terrible", especially one that wanders around barefoot and doesn’t wear tuxedos easily. Jude agrees, adding that it is, of course, a fantasy film.

An audience member reminded Brian of his comments about Jackson’s previous work, and wonders how he got so much money for Lord of the Rings given his previous work. The short story is apparently that Jackson gets what he wants. Has a phenomenal tenacity and "gets people to do whatever he wants". He makes films that people want to see, even though none of his films have come in under budget, people still want to see the film. He "catches the public mood and rides it."

Brian fleshes out the story a little, but dutifully points people towards his forthcoming biography of Jackson to get the full story. Miramax had agreed to make Lord of the Rings as two films, but became increasingly concerned as costs spiralled over budget. They eventually put a stop to the money and gave Jackson a chance to take it to another studio. He took his work to New Line who’s only concern was the fact that it was two films "It’s three books, why isn’t it 3 movies?" Jackson could hardly believe his good fortune. New Line paid back what Miramax had already spent and the demanded 5% of the final film too. Miramax seem to have learnt their lesson from losing the other 95% however, they’ve allowed Quentin Tarantino to turn one film into two!

Brian agreed that he too had been cautious of Jackson, apparently thinking "oh my god!" when he first heard of his involvement. Brian, unlike Jude, did know of Jackson’s previous work and although he thought them to be good genre films, it wasn’t until he saw Heavenly Creatures that he thought Jackson could actually pull off Lord of the Rings. Following a quick poll showing that only about half the audience had seen any of Jackson’s other works Brian pointed out how interesting it was that Jackson had become such a phenomenally successful director while so few had actually seen his other films.

With the recent re-release of the radio play, would Brian change anything if he got the chance to redo it? Particularly seeing Jackson’s handling of the story? Brian responded that he’d love to change some things, particularly little things that just ‘bug him’ when he listens to it now. He definitely approves of Jackson’s changes to the character of Arwen and having her ride out to meet the hobbits and Aragorn as "she had nothing to do in the books, bless her!". He also doesn’t have any regrets at all about cutting Tom Bombadil! Unfortunately, much as he’d love to re-edit the plays, he cannot as the out-takes, cuts and even original music scores have been lost.

The question of "Do you have any reservations?" was hastily skimmed over with "Yes, lot of them, but they’re ours" and a general unwillingness to be too critical. Brian noted that it was interesting that people found it difficult to be publicly critical of the films. Jackson apparently finds this quite confusing having expected considerably more objections..

On the subject of casting they were a little more vocal. Jude felt it was probably "almost the biggest achievement" of the films, noting that when she first walked into a room with the cast in it, even without their costumes she could identify the characters down to the last hobbit. They both agreed that Stuart Townsend would have been a disaster as Aragorn and that some of their favourite acting came from Karl Urban, Miranda Otto and Bernard Hill (apparently unknown in America, yet famous in the UK for Boys from the Blackstuff). Much of the casting came from discussions amongst the three writers of their fantasy cast and it was such an exciting project that many of their first choices agreed. Others came from professional casting and they also mentioned Elijah Wood’s famous home made movie lobbying for a part. Even Christopher Lee, an esteemed actor no longer accustomed to auditioning for a role went to read for a part. So many people wanted to be part of the film, particularly extras "obsessive geeks who had to be a part of it". Brian seemed somewhat put out that he didn’t get to be an extra and Jude said that due to rescheduling she missed her chance to be a wench.

The talk ended with the inevitable comments on Return of the King. Jude felt that it definitely has the potential to be the best of the three, citing all the massive plot strands to be wrapped up. She also commented on her love of the Path’s of the Dead from the books, her interest in finally seeing Shelob and how much she enjoys a good battle scene. Continuing her list she commented on how Sean Astin’s Sam makes a wonderful hero and this will be his chance to shine. There should be a lot of heart in the third film if they get the editing right.

Brian echoed this sentiment, getting jealous looks from all concerned when he said that he’d seen 4 reels from the middle of the film. And that it’s amazing, but hoping that the effects of cutting will not have too much effect.

The talk concluded with applause from all and a small herd of people heading to the bookshop for a signing and chat with the authors.